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Zeakman
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PostSubject: The Church   The Church Icon_minitime1Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:23 pm

I want to know the story of why a member of the NNGO is forbidden by the Church in France to become Bishop or Priest in Ireland ?

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Bekah
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PostSubject: Re: The Church   The Church Icon_minitime1Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:50 pm

As fas as I know, it is due to an earlier association with the WoS. The Church declared anathema on the WoS because of the church of Loki and NNGO ended up tarred with the same brush. As far as I am concerned, the whole way that the IG part of the Church is so thoroughly player controlled is wrong and always has been, but then I would feel that way lol!

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Zeakman
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PostSubject: Re: The Church   The Church Icon_minitime1Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:03 pm

I am "Church Way" and my path is set before me , but because of some law the best the Church in Ireland will do for me was to Appoint me "Theologian of the Universal and Roman Aristotelian Church" any ideas on how to change this ?

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Bekah
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PostSubject: Re: The Church   The Church Icon_minitime1Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:55 pm

No idea at all. I am in a worse position than that - I was science way, did all my studies for that and everything, then on a boat I stupidly clicked a button that changed me to Church way. So I am Church way, but with none of the Church way screens. I am totally up the creek without a paddle.

The admins will not offer you any help on it, all you will get is something along the lines of you made your choices. Never in my life have I played a game that is less forgiving of mistakes than this one, even real life is more forgiving lol.

As far as being appointed a priest within the current Church structure, unless you jump through all the hoops that players have set up, then you have no chance.

Oh and if I sound bitter and angry about it all, it's because I am lol.

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PostSubject: Re: The Church   The Church Icon_minitime1Sat Nov 19, 2011 6:42 pm

I feel the same way , not say'n I want to be a Priest today but I have no choice in my future , because of the appointment they granted me I have the option to Preach but because of the law it won't let me . I also have Access to the forum of the Roman Aristotelian Church but my requests there and inquiries have only been acknowledged by the Irish Church.

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PostSubject: Re: The Church   The Church Icon_minitime1Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:21 pm

Yeah, we kind of went over this when they wouldn't let Devin and I get married. Razz URAC says the only way they'd lift NNGO of the anathema is if Anto repented or some garbage. And of course, if anyone wishes to leave NNGO and repent to URAC, they can be lifted of he anathema as well.

Not worth it.

Last i heard, Glasgow is trying to get rid of URAC's presence there. There is hope that if they RP their separation and RP having their official religion being Paganism or something, admin will allow Glasgow to have whatever IG priests they'd like. So if it winds up working for them, you might want to try that in Chonnacht.
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PostSubject: Re: The Church   The Church Icon_minitime1Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:00 pm

Some suggestions for how to get ahead in churchway by not becoming a priest in URAC.

What you will not have access to is becoming a priest or a bishop for the IG church, because that is an admin decided thing. This may seem like a problem as you will need your points to get to lvl 4. But it is a little known fact that you actually earn more points being on a diocese council than being a priest IG. And you don't have to fulfil any IG role on a weekly basis like the priests do.

I would therefore suggest contacting whoever is the local bishop for your town/diocese and seeing if they will add your name to their council. Explain oocly as a player that you didnt realise the restrictions when you chose church way, or whatever, and that now you won't be able to progress in the game unless you can earn your points of divine truth (or whatever they're called). Appeal to their nature as players ooc. I've definitely seen players who haven't been baptised in URAC sitting on those councils before - mainly because they just weren't roleplayers :p (Its amazing how far you can get in the church if you're lvl 3 churchway and not a forum roleplayer =p )

Regarding preaching IG, which you can start to do when you are far enough along in your studies, I believe that this is an IG function that no one can prevent you doing. And there is no law against it as far as I'm aware. Church law means nothing as it only affects those who are part of the church.

I dont think Glasgow will have any luck, sadly. There is very little wriggle room from deviating from the admin's vision for religion in RK. I've investigated this a few times in the last four years to see what was possible, as the way the URAC religion is set up is just so disheartening to RP that there are hardly any lvl 3 churchways left who are willing to RP the necessary hoops just for the privilege of having control of an IG church. I know I won't be taking my character that way again if I get her back up to lvl 3.

For what its worth, the majority of players who do RP characters in the URAC religion would also prefer the restrictions lifted too so it wasn't just URAC priests in the IG churches in towns. Unfortunately its a top-down decision.
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PostSubject: Re: The Church   The Church Icon_minitime1Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:08 pm

Glasgow has Conchobar, who I think would be a strong candidate for the role, if Glasgow wanted to RP becoming Pagan but I do not know of any others. I know Smudge is coming out with Cheataoism, but it would depend on how much he wants to pursue that. Still, the reason why people don't RP being priests might have to do with the already set restrictions. Afterall, all other games have a healthy percentage of priests.
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PostSubject: Re: The Church   The Church Icon_minitime1Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:11 am

I think Telcara was told actually, non URAC could be appointed, it's player rules stopping it, when she asked admin :?
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PostSubject: Re: The Church   The Church Icon_minitime1Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:52 pm

Yes, the admin don't stop players from being appointed, its players that are stopping it. That's why I think it sucks, because nothing ever gets done about it, yet loads of towns are left without priests because fewer players are willing to kowtow.

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PostSubject: Re: The Church   The Church Icon_minitime1Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:36 pm

heh yeah... i have taken the approach instead of flaming and being rude in OOC, actually trying to be polite with the goal of making religion RP more available for everyone. Which doesn't mean that the URAC church and any other religions must be buddies, but OOC deals can be made and then RP can still be looking down at one another Razz

Glasgow Inn:

Telcara wrote:
I have asked admin and received this reply:

Brennos 11th Oct 2011 wrote:
About Church, the bishops have their own organization, they give me the names of the new bishops and I appointed them manually. And Bishops appoint priest In Game. Characters who have this power do the laws they want about priest's rules.

I have yet to see anything from admin that says if a priests wants to be appointed to a church they have to follow a certain set of rules. Do enlighten me if there are any. To me the reply is that bishops, who are the leaders of church, can decide on what rules to have. To change them would therefore not be as impossible as it seems.

To note, my question was formulated like this:

Can I at the same time ask you for clarification regarding church, priests and URAC/URACE. The bishops and archbishop are the people who appoint priests in a church in every town. They claim that all priests to be appointed in a church -must- be a member of URAC and follow a set of rules (no IG marriage, weapons etc). From what I understand they claim this is what admin have said (although years ago and not public?). URAC is the only religion who is allowed to have priests in churches. Can I kindly ask for admin to confirm this as I cannot find facts to support their claim?

Censors, please allow this discussion as it is important for Glasgow's churches, do not move or delete this OOC, rather split it off if some action is required. OOC discussion is allowed regarding RP.



In Highlands Hall the OOC discussion reached 3.5 pages, 27th Oct to 31st Oct. Its long, I know. It does have some lulz, and I think it might also help people interested in the church matter. Feel free to repost! I haven't edited anything in any way.
Telcara. wrote:
Sepia wrote:
You point the finger at the URAC saying that we stop other religions, but I say what other religions? In all our recent descussions regarding other religions, not once have I heard of one ...

I believe that answers itself, there are few other open religions because they fear the church. And don't compare the town church to your bed, jeez.


Sepia wrote:
OOC: This is a roleplay game, you have a King that you treat as a pretender, and a pretender you treat as a King.... how can you not roleplay your own Churches and religion?
OOC: This has nothing to do with kings and pretenders. How can you not roleplay without being bosses of all the churches? Its ridiculous how you have given yourself that right through rules, stating that "admin have said so" when you have never been able to show proof of it. You can change the rules but choose not to. Your only come back is that there are no other religions and that making one takes too much time, which is bull manure.

Do you remember?
Telcara. wrote:
Sepia wrote:
Also as I'm sure has been mentioned before, we can't hand over the keys as requested. We've discussed this with Admins before and it doesn't follow the RP of the time.

I have asked admin and received this reply:

Brennos 11th Oct 2011 wrote:
About Church, the bishops have their own organization, they give me the names of the new bishops and I appointed them manually. And Bishops appoint priest In Game. Characters who have this power do the laws they want about priest's rules.

I have yet to see anything from admin that says if a priests wants to be appointed to a church they have to follow a certain set of rules. Do enlighten me if there are any. To me the reply is that bishops, who are the leaders of church, can decide on what rules to have. To change them would therefore not be as impossible as it seems.

To note, my question was formulated like this:

Can I at the same time ask you for clarification regarding church, priests and URAC/URACE. The bishops and archbishop are the people who appoint priests in a church in every town. They claim that all priests to be appointed in a church -must- be a member of URAC and follow a set of rules (no IG marriage, weapons etc). From what I understand they claim this is what admin have said (although years ago and not public?). URAC is the only religion who is allowed to have priests in churches. Can I kindly ask for admin to confirm this as I cannot find facts to support their claim?
Sepia wrote:
Quote :
I believe that answers itself, there are few other open religions because they fear the church. And don't compare the town church to your bed, jeez.

To this, I would say there are few URAC because they fear people like you, other religions I believe would feel most welcome atm considering the loudest voices are against the URAC.

OOC: Firstly I have offered to start discussions about this ooc, so you can't hold it against my real person, let alone insult my real person for it. I would be willing to explore these options. As mentioned before these rules where put in place back when you wern't even alive in game, as these discussions have happened before, however they where so long ago that I'm not going to be able to find the proof cause it would have been deleted by now. Seriously though, if everyone is going to insult my RP & RL person over this, why should I even bother? I should just suggest the Church removes it's presence here and leave you without an ingame Church at all!

Also when you first mentioned this:

Quote :
About Church, the bishops have their own organization, they give me the names of the new bishops and I appointed them manually. And Bishops appoint priest In Game. Characters who have this power do the laws they want about priest's rules.

I said that they might not necissarily mean the Bishop's, that the people they mean have this power would be the organisation in general. Have you actually asked clarfication about this, like I asked at the time? Further to this.... how are we meant to even do anything when Alanna isn't allowed to move for fear of death?
Quote :

How can you not roleplay without being bosses of all the churches?

How can you not roleplay it? It's a roleplay game!! You could roleplay you where the pope himself and as long as it was done well I'm sure people would support you. Or has this game become so lack luster after time that nobody remembers how to roleplay anymore? Just be argumentative?

(Going into retreat for the weekend will be back on Monday.)

Edwin_odesseiron wrote:
People can only address to you in OOC as much as you let them know you in RL. If you can't take the heat, you shouldn't have used your RL stuff as arguments in here. You can blame yourself really...

Alistair243 wrote:
Im with Sepia on this OOC, i havnt had to deal much with the church in RP but iv heard of Glasgows situation. Now i understand many want to control the church in their area so their not under URAC but the game mechanics give all the power to URAC, so far i havnt really seen a proper rp based on a new religion around Scotland other than choncobar who has his stones, now i dont know what Glasgow still does but you could always develop on that and either A prove you have a majority of citizens not URAC but your religion, or have a religious war where you throw out the priests of the new religion and replace them. If you were to explain to the Church members OOC that this was an rp and you would very much like it if they would co operate on you with this, to appoint priests for your district and in return they continue to have the bishop seat until all of scotland isnt URAC or something. But i would think the church would be very accomodating, its not like their losing much, they always have a shortage of priests and so not having to govern Glasgow out of their vast realm would matter little. If on the other hand they refused Brennos i would like to think would be most accomodating.

But to demand control of your church without rping something else is just lazy, it also makes it look far more OOC because its something you want with your character rather than going through all the actions of a play. Im not saying make an rp thread and make a new religion and all that jaz, but make a story too it, make up a structure for the religion make us letters to explain whats happening and make your demands to the church, convert the people of the land, because URAC wont give up the churches while they have a majority. But, and i may be misinformed here, saying you want control of the church just so you can appoint priests you like isnt good rping.

And last but not least, this is a very religious period, the admins changed the names so we wouldnt get too caught up in it but still you can see the groups, for a county to declare religious freedom would cause a civil war, or a crusade, France IG has had a few of these actually as they rp it. So when you rp otherwise and you should rp not just try and control the church for your own ends, then remember it has world consequences and accept that.

Thomas_macspr wrote:
Aye, if you're going to try and take the church due to your people holding different faiths, are least try and add a bit of a story to it. Yes, its a select number within the UR.. whatever, that decides who gets placement. But I'd figured if you tried to build a bridge, the buggers pressing the buttons would have to cross at some point.

PS: Whatever happened to the Scottish church? You know, Brother_Chris's lot and all that stuff. That had a nice twang to it, and was fairly RP'ed from what it remember. 😉

Telcara. wrote:
It was you and not I who posted OOC, I merely answered to your OOC question. Its you who choose to take it personal when there isn't anything personal in it.

Sepia wrote:
I should just suggest the Church removes it's presence here and leave you without an ingame Church at all!

Yes yes, please do. Laughing

See now we seem to reach the area which borders to OOC insults and threats. You are threatening to close the churches of Glasgow OOC because you don't like the discussion.


Again, I say "How can you not roleplay without being bosses of all the churches?"
What it comes down to for me is that this is a game option that a certain group of players have closed for other players merely by a few sentences of "rules". In fairness, I'd like to see any priest way character being able to serve as a priest in a church as long as their town agrees.

Asking the URAC to allow other religions is a bold step. But I do think it needs to be something bold like that in order to change things. Numerous times have people questioned the vows of a priest and too easily are they silenced. Leah's character gave in my opinion very good arguments for changing requirements regarding marriage and children.

As for building the bridge... I'd rather have the foundation at first - URAC willing to 1) Change the requirements which are in place regarding priest marriage and children or/and 2) Allow priests of other religions.

Korna wrote:
OOC:
The church discussion is a very old one. There has been trouble with religion ever since RK Scotland was created. I believe at one point there were 3 different religions (whether you can call them churches is another point). I remember quite some Scottish characters and their players that got fed up with URACE. Whether their reasons were valid I've never tried to find out.

One of the IG problems is that the church can be a political instrument. Which is correct. I guess the church would be quite boring if there wasn't a bit of politics, war and power abuse. However, some people have a problem with that because they mix RK with the modern concept of separation of state and religion. But, that is not really important. RK is mixed anyway. Accept the RK world for what it is. Not for its historical accuracy.

The second more relevant problem is the influence of English politics in Scotland via the church. I think this is one of the major reasons why the URACE was and is resisted for so long. One of the reasons why some want to start their own church. Personally, I do not believe English politics influence Scottish politics through the URACE. Scotland is just too stubborn for that. So maybe it is because Scottish characters do not like to be told what to do by English bishops.

Another reason is just because they do not agree with URACE policy. There will always be people that do not agree with some policy.

A third problem, is that I guess most players simply don't care. The church just doesn't exert enough IG influence on the game to make it count. Now it is just an RP sub realm for those that wish to RP religion. Which is also fine. It just makes me wonder why these discussions always have to be so heated.

If there are people that have the ambition to become a Scottish bishop then why not come to an RP agreement? If that doesn't work then only a change of the game interface will.

Barerose wrote:
hate the URACE all that you wish, I do as well.....
but we are Missing the boat in this.
the URACS.

Where is that?
That is what needs to be here.

As for Dukes, Counts, Kings, & Queens being able to Control it...... NO WAY!
Actually historically speaking, it is the other way around.

Doesn't anyone remember that Scotland is one of the only kingdoms in Europe that stood up to the Pope, and said NO!, this is how it's gonna be!
And the Pope Backed Down. We ordained our Own King (Bruce) and denounced the Papal Supported King (Balliol), and we did it through our OWN branch of the Church.

The Cathedral of St. Andrews (IG) is located in Glasgow Scotland.
It's not gonna change.
The Admins aren't gonna changed that just for us.
We either use that, as a Strictly Scottish Institution (URACS) or like it or not, there will be foriegn Cardnals, & Bishops in there.
If we want to keep Scottish Citizens at the head of our Religionous Institutions, we have to keep Scottish Citizens in there.
If we pull them out, or kill them everytime they come up here to be int here...... they will be replaced with NON SCOTTISH players.
I don't like that.
Not at all.

Now I have heard a lot about how the URAC has does this an that, and that it's ALL about England.
BULL SNOT!
Allanna and Sephia are Scottish.
They live in Scotland.
Allanna was born in Scotland.
Where is the angst in that?
This is just plain STUPID!
The ONLY priests that I see being hindered in all this Hub-bub have been Scottish Priests.
We are Killing Our Own, in order to try and gain STATE control over the CHURCH. And that is just plain Stupid!

Church Way, CAN NOT be controlled by the State. It's impossible. It will never happen (no matter how hard the knuckle~heads in Glasgow Try).
If we opt to just eliminate it, and leave all the Churches Empty, to thumb our noses at the Game, then you better start telling EVERYONE that is about to level, to choose STATE WAY, because Church Way will be TOTALLY DEAD IG, in Scotland......... and it isn't the Admins Fault, it will be ours.

I think the biggest problem in all this, is that people can't wrap their tiny little minds around the fact that the Church has NO borders, and it Never Will. It's not strictly a Glasgow Thing, it's not strictly a Galloway thing, and it's not strictly a Scotland Thing. And You Can't Control That.
Well that, and idots tryin' to weezel in their own personal beliefs into it all.

You want Scotland to have a voice in the Church Way?
Lets DO IT!
Stop killing and hindering our own Church Way, and get them into the possitions that they can be heard.
You want the English Branch of the URAC to become 2nd class to the Scottish Branch......... I'm All For It!

I find it funny, when people ask me why I chose State Way,
I Did It Because I Hate Politics......... and that is really all that Church Way is..... dirty poitics.

Alanna_kyles wrote:
Well I am in a position to fight.



So the question is this, and be honest.....don't just give a blah blah argument


Do I empty all Glasgow churches? I can do that for you.

What is it that Glasgow wants? All I ever hear is threats. Galloway runs smoothly with the Churches, and I can tell you this.

I do not sit in the English URAC pockets. I became Churchway to help. That is all I am interested in doing. To be able to do that for you though, if you decide you wish help, is to be able to help you. Not get threatened or hindered from the exceptional few players. and mostly they are English which is ironic)


URAC is made up of Scotland, Ireland

URACE is made up of Scotland, Ireland and England that does mean we are bossed by England. People have the wrong misconception on that.

I have fought not to have foreign Bishops and Cardinals here in Scotland, as I know exactly how Glasgow would feel on that.


Bare is right though......I was born in Largs, Ayr in 2006 Mother Finn Baptized me, and Father Bennett ordained me into a Priest.

Sepia has been working hard even more so when she was an active Cardinal, but she has been active lately moreso because of the problems I have been having since coming to Glasgow to help.

My job is to get inactive players out of the IG Churches and find new active ones for you. Is hard to find though and I will be honest attitudes have to change if you are going to get active players who are able to do churchway for many are not comfortable with the threats and comments that go on.

Or as I said above, When I am active, on my way to Galloway, I can go to all Glasgow towns and delete all church priests for you, and you can do what you wish.
Telcara. wrote:
Is that a threat, the player behind Alanna...? I have to ask because I'm unsure of the tone of your post.

Cause I'm unsure if I should read it you'll remove all priests and leave us without priests for good

OR

If you are willing to listen to the characters and players in Glasgow on how they'd like their town church?

Whatever personal insults you and Sepia are referring to, I have no clue about them. I have not taken part in any OOC threats or the like. I'm sorry if anyone has taken it to that level.

Jaqen wrote:
(Before you start reading this, I read a few at the most posts from here, theres been a few religious topics and well this is just something for em all :p)

I originally wanted to go church way but didn't because I knew I wouldn't have a church for long if at all, the only way to be given a position is to kneel, bow, grovel and uphold the party manifesto and the only way to keep it is to either become inactive or continue to agree and uphold points you don't agree with, whilst never associating with decent people in the game because of their affiliation according to the higher ups. Which is a shame. Also, why can no one play as proper renaissance clergymen? They were mostly, if not all, corrupt, tricking the populace into parting with their money, lands and any other worldly goods for the benefit of the "church", church in most cases being themselves.

I want priests out there marching dying, diseased people through the streets believing that’ll cure them rather than spread it, priests flaying and lashing themselves to gain their god’s favour, relieving any and all of their worldly possessions so as they can purchase themselves some niceties, not churches full of dormant chairs.

Why can't the other religions be given the chance to fill these spots? Some go empty for years yet you lot grasp your monopoly as a leper would his skin and y'all wonder why no one cares for the institute?

"Oh but the admins gave our religion the churches." Aye, and? It is easy enough for your religion, whom has control of said churches, to appoint someone of a different faith. Or do we only role play the whole "but we don't like other religions" rather than being pious, having no wealth etc etc?

You all wonder why there’s no role play of people's disdain for the church and its simple, you are then excommunicated and any priest that has anything to do with you is removed and there goes another church to ruin. You lot hide away in your private forums discussing things that don't matter in the slightest, fretting over dogma whilst churches go vacant, are filled by inactive priests or by foreigners.

And you've never heard mention of other religions? Don't give us that, you know which ones are out there. What about the old faith? Theres a lot going around practicing such up here.

Frankly I'm just sick of you lot thinking being of URACE makes you more deserving than anyone else and feigning inability to further any other religion.

Conchobhor wrote:
Alistair243
Quote :
so far i havnt really seen a proper rp based on a new religion around Scotland other than choncobar who has his stones
Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

Nicest words I've ever read in RK! Thanks, man! I'll walk your dog for a whole week!

[raises hand]

I'd like to fill an inactive Church in Glasgow, if one's available. I'm honest, dilligent, and dutiful to anyone interested. I make good ale, too.

Alanna_kyles wrote:
Telcara. wrote:
Is that a threat, the player behind Alanna...? I have to ask because I'm unsure of the tone of your post.

Cause I'm unsure if I should read it you'll remove all priests and leave us without priests for good

OR

If you are willing to listen to the characters and players in Glasgow on how they'd like their town church?

Whatever personal insults you and Sepia are referring to, I have no clue about them. I have not taken part in any OOC threats or the like. I'm sorry if anyone has taken it to that level.

@Telcara.

No is not a threat Telcara. You constantly state how you do not wish us in the Churches provided IG. I am stating that if this is your wish I can take all the playersw out of the Church for you. Simple. I see no threat in what I wrote, I am simply managing to come up with one solution for you.

Sepia is not insulting. She is stating facts and her personal opinions. Nothing wrong in that. You do it all the time.

@ Jaquen

Quote :
Frankly I'm just sick of you lot thinking being of URACE makes you more deserving than anyone else and feigning inability to further any other religion.

How am I possibly thinking I am deserving more because of my position? I want to see more get promoted.

As I said, Galloway's churches are smooth running and people advance quicker in the church. I would like to see it happen in Glasgow as well, but there has to be some change.

My original intent was to come up to Glasgow to get more active players within your churches. I get in trouble for that, and find I am not only not allowed to move freely within Glasgow to do this, I get killed by Giant_abc on my way home. Then I get kill listed, and told that only way safely out of glasgow for me is if I get someone to pick me up by ship.

I get told that you want to do without our churches. I get told that our rules our ridiculous, and whilst I agree that some are, it is the path I willingly took.

We all take vows upon our ordination. We knowingly accept that.

I am always constantly looking for those who will make an asset to the church, so to promote them.




BUT


You have to accept certain things too. No one is stopping you from having any type of faith church. You can roleplay all you wish. The IG ones (where some refer to as your weekly mass for mood improvement) belong to URAC. We cannot place in a person of a different faith to manage those. One big reason is because what you preach affects The transcendental menu. This in turn affects our ideas and faith points. If we have a mess that is contradicting what we are studying, we will lose faith.


If you are serious about wishing a change though, draw up a draft of clear precise and thought out changes you would like to see. I will take this draft to Rome for you.
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PostSubject: Re: The Church   The Church Icon_minitime1Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:37 pm

Angeljoy_whitesnow wrote:
[OOC]
Yes, you're saying that if we won't accept who you put in churches you'll empty them, that's a threat. Really an ultimatum.

Tel wasn't saying that Sepia was insulting, but that if she was feeling insulted that wasn't Tel's intention.

You can stop comparing Glasgow to Galloway any time, because they have very different mindsets. And just because Galloway is happy with URACE doesn't mean Glasgow must be.

Quote :
My original intent was to come up to Glasgow to get more active players within your churches. I get in trouble for that, and find I am not only not allowed to move freely within Glasgow to do this, I get killed by Giant_abc on my way home. Then I get kill listed, and told that only way safely out of glasgow for me is if I get someone to pick me up by ship.

And come on now, if your character wants to play the innocent victim, that's fine, but the player behind knows that Alanna the character is not without fault.

Quote :
You have to accept certain things too. No one is stopping you from having any type of faith church. You can roleplay all you wish. The IG ones (where some refer to as your weekly mass for mood improvement) belong to URAC. We cannot place in a person of a different faith to manage those. One big reason is because what you preach affects The transcendental menu. This in turn affects our ideas and faith points. If we have a mess that is contradicting what we are studying, we will lose faith.

We don't have to accept these things, we're clearly ready to challenge them. It's not that you cannot, it's that you will not. This is where it's unfair to those who do not wish to rp being URACE and follow their ig rules. This is where any other faith who wishes to pursue ig church path does not get to play ig with the same options. You say, "Well you can rp whatever you want", but that is not fair ig to those like Conch.

Jaqen wrote:
Alanna_kyles wrote:
You have to accept certain things too. No one is stopping you from having any type of faith church. You can roleplay all you wish. The IG ones (where some refer to as your weekly mass for mood improvement) belong to URAC. We cannot place in a person of a different faith to manage those. One big reason is because what you preach affects The transcendental menu. This in turn affects our ideas and faith points. If we have a mess that is contradicting what we are studying, we will lose faith.


If you are serious about wishing a change though, draw up a draft of clear precise and thought out changes you would like to see. I will take this draft to Rome for you.

This is where you are 100percent wrong. You and people like you are stopping us from having a different faith church. Ohhh, the transcendental menu, that menu that has so much sway on my character. It does nothing.

Unless you are telling me you phsyically can't install someone of a different faith into a church position rather than you wont install someone of a different faith into a church position then yes, you are personally contributing to the game not only being limited but worse than it could be.

How's this for a draft?

URACE agrees to install people of other religions into church positions OOCly, church officicals can't be removed unless there is some form of petition from the populace of said town for priests, county for the higher up things. If people in a town were happy with their priest word wouldn't reach rome about any of their misdeeds, or do you only roleplay your roles to the extent of you having an advantage?

I'm assuming the priest chooses something to preach ig from what you've said as you said it could mess up trans menu, if thats the case, whats to stop the priest of another religion from chosing one that doesn't mess it up whilst writing a completely different parish priest message, one encompassing their religion?

You all wonder whats killed the church and the answer is those in charge of it.

You keep saying you are free to roleplay having different churches, you sure? As far as I'm aware if I do so then I lose any chance of participating in anything that church offers (not much but there might be more in the future) and any priest associating with me loses their position.

You are free to role play having a church, you are free to roleplay this and that, others aren't.

Whats stopping you from giving someone like Conch a church to head and YOU roleplaying that you have noticed an increasing number of people worshiping with a strange tree man in the forest? Again, the answer being you. The people within the IG chrch roleplay to an extent, stopping when they could lost control.

(yes, you are stuck with random rants because this has annoyed me for a while.)

Whitesnow wrote:
Alanna_kyles wrote:
Do I empty all Glasgow churches? I can do that for you.

Please do. After all, there is only one with active priest anyways Razz

Jaqen wrote:
Alistair243 wrote:
Im with Sepia on this OOC, i havnt had to deal much with the church in RP but iv heard of Glasgows situation. Now i understand many want to control the church in their area so their not under URAC but the game mechanics give all the power to URAC, so far i havnt really seen a proper rp based on a new religion around Scotland other than choncobar who has his stones, now i dont know what Glasgow still does but you could always develop on that and either A prove you have a majority of citizens not URAC but your religion, or have a religious war where you throw out the priests of the new religion and replace them. If you were to explain to the Church members OOC that this was an rp and you would very much like it if they would co operate on you with this, to appoint priests for your district and in return they continue to have the bishop seat until all of scotland isnt URAC or something. But i would think the church would be very accomodating, its not like their losing much, they always have a shortage of priests and so not having to govern Glasgow out of their vast realm would matter little. If on the other hand they refused Brennos i would like to think would be most accomodating.

But to demand control of your church without rping something else is just lazy, it also makes it look far more OOC because its something you want with your character rather than going through all the actions of a play. Im not saying make an rp thread and make a new religion and all that jaz, but make a story too it, make up a structure for the religion make us letters to explain whats happening and make your demands to the church, convert the people of the land, because URAC wont give up the churches while they have a majority. But, and i may be misinformed here, saying you want control of the church just so you can appoint priests you like isnt good rping.

And last but not least, this is a very religious period, the admins changed the names so we wouldnt get too caught up in it but still you can see the groups, for a county to declare religious freedom would cause a civil war, or a crusade, France IG has had a few of these actually as they rp it. So when you rp otherwise and you should rp not just try and control the church for your own ends, then remember it has world consequences and accept that.

Ignoring the majority of your usual nonsense about Glasgow...
Where have you seen anywhere that anyone wants to control the church? Nowhere, you're just spouting your typical "I don't know the situation but I'm going to spout random Excrement."

Why should anyone roleplay being of a different religion? The church has sucked all the fun out of it, they wont give your character any chance of gaining a church, now why would I waste time roleplaying I have one, if I'm never going to have one? You might like to roleplay in the weald about how intelligent Alastair (my impression of the character not the person behind it.) is but this isn't the weald so we can only roleplay the possible and according to URAC figures other religions are impossible.

Again, OOCly talking about an OOC dispute? Yeah, thats super lazy. Also, once more, why should I waste my time and that of others with a roleplay in the aim of having someone of a different faith implemented when you can see clearly here that they refuse to let go of any shred of power they have? Favouring leaving a county without priessts rather than allow, not even let go of any of their power, a priest of a different religion.

It was a very religious period you are right, and it is the period in which the church lost its sway and Lutherism rose to prominence. No one is trying to control the church for their own ends, we s imply want religious freedom, wasn't that somewhere on the constitution?

Between the church and being in Scotland any point of proper roleplaying is gone.

Whitesnow wrote:
Quote :
Ignoring the majority of your usual nonsense about Glasgow...

He has to do it Smile After all, he probably promised to Alanna that he will solve her problem Laughing

Populism is Alistair's horse.

Alanna_kyles wrote:
I do not sit in the English URAC pockets.

Alanna_kyles wrote:
Quote :
Whitesnow wrote:
Quote :
This is further enforced by Alanna_Kyles being killed just recently. Now i have not said a single word to Glasgow about Alanna being prosecuted, you can have your courts its your land your law

Alanna_kyles had to think before messing with Ardencaple's priest, breaking county's laws and lying to the authorities. I advise you to send a ship for her extraction, because she's not gone from the kill list Razz Its totally her choice: would she had paid for the permission the very first time, now there wouldnt be that many problems.

Dry, I will not apologize for dismissing Swampi out of her office. I was asked to do so from Rome officials, and if you wish to see the document, I will post it here.

syounger wrote:
I've been putting this off firstly because unfortunately the inactivity in Scotland for a while, then I was concerned for the safety of Our Bishop, then the English/Scottish deaths seemed bad timing but I cannot keep putting this off.

What I now need to do is decide if I should post it or let Bishop Alanna_kyles deal with paper work presented here below with a view to posting it locally where in truth I think it needs to go.

There is also the decision to be made should a copy be sent direct to the former Priestess or again should I handle that task in person.

We have had few like this before to look back on for guidance!




Quote :
    The Church 1581mr7
    Defrockation of a Priest
    Swampi. has been defrocked


    I, Syrus younger Mortimer, Cardinal-Bishop of Worcester, Cardinal-Inquisitor of Anglophone geo dogmatic zone in the front of Aristotle before the most high in the name of our sacred mother church


    Proclaim the following:


    Defrockation of Reverand Mother Swampi.

    As per the canon law Canon Law - 2.2 - Rome: "The Cardinals, alone are with being able to validate defrocking of a Priest or Monk, volunteer or not."
    We henceforth defrock Reverend Mother Swampi. from all her titles and offices in the spiritual world, she does not have the right to preach in the name of our lord anymore for the foul actions that she has committed. The Nameless one is eager to catch anyone he can, it's a sad day when a shepherd of our Lord falls into the claws of the Nameless one.
    The decision is effective immediately after the proclamation has been released



    May jah forgive the poor miserable sinners


    The Church Earougebn3

    SE Syrus younger Mortimer Cardinal Elector


    Given in Rome at the V day of September in the year of our lord MCDLIX


She had clearly violated her vows as a priestess. Those being the following:


Quote :

I take my vows on this day [XXX]

In front of my peers and in front of every Aristotelian, I, [XXX], ordained by [XXX], [XXX], in [XXX] in [ XXX]

I swear not to carry weapons of battle except the ceremonial weapons related to my nobility or which are merely customary.

I swear not to found a family, and vow celibacy and not to adopt any children.

I swear to be an example to follow in giving preference to study instead of looking for wealth (even if I am already a "Theologian of the Universal Roman Aristotelian Church") and I commit myself to the true Faith and all the faithful.

I swear obedience to the hierarchy proclaimed by Christos, to the dogma, and to the canon law.



I also sincerely hope that instead of having me threatened if I should not leave the County, then get killed if I do so, that I can pass onto my home to Galloway when my bones get the first aid that they require. I did nothing to warrant getting killed, so having me on a kill list seems a tad overdone

Yeah...

Thomas_macspr wrote:
Jaqen wrote:
we simply want religious freedom, wasn't that somewhere on the constitution?

We still have that thing? Thought it vanished along with the National government. :?

Whitesnow wrote:
Does it matter ? Even if "constitution" doesnt exist anymore, quite some urace defenders did believe in "constitution" too back in those days.

It does show how many sheep are around. Its not bad nor good, sheep always were under control in one form or another.

Telcara. wrote:
Angeljoy_whitesnow wrote:
Tel wasn't saying that Sepia was insulting, but that if she was feeling insulted that wasn't Tel's intention.
Aye, thanks Angel for clearing that up.

Alanna_Kyles wrote:
You constantly state how you do not wish us in the Churches provided IG. I am stating that if this is your wish I can take all the playersw out of the Church for you.
Thank you. It may seem like my character wants all URAC people out of Glasgow HOWEVER I as a player would much, much rather see priests of different faiths in the churches - not excluding URAC. A diversity of faiths in a positive way.

Alanna_Kyles wrote:
The IG ones (where some refer to as your weekly mass for mood improvement) belong to URAC. We cannot place in a person of a different faith to manage those. One big reason is because what you preach affects The transcendental menu.
THAT is what I have a problem with. Admin have said that it is up to you which priest you choose for to manage a church. Admin has not said anything about what faith they have to be. Those rules are entirely URAC's creation and does not need to be there. I don't think The transcendental menu has such a big impact as you'd like us to think, and Jaquen has a point. Why wouldn't other faiths work together?

Conch wrote:
I'd like to fill an inactive Church in Glasgow, if one's available. I'm honest, dilligent, and dutiful to anyone interested. I make good ale, too.
To me it seems like Conch is very willing to work together and will not jeopardize whatever there is to in masses and The transcendental menu. There is no active priest in Stirling. I support Conch's character as a priest of his faith to be settled to manage the church of Stirling.

Korna wrote:
Multiple religions trying to control the IG buildings will never work. Not as long as the IG controls are not designed for it. With only one church building per town only one religion can inhabit it.

The only way to fairly arrange that is by voting. Voting on town level will never work because the bisshop becomes a "religion administrator" just to satisfy and manage the multitude of religions. I would not love to role play such a position.
You could have a voting on county level. But how long will such a voting system last without IG voting controls? From my past experience with the NA it will not last very long.

With the current IG controls I see this only working with one religion in place. That doesn't need to be URAC. It can also be something based on URAC due to a schism (like Bare said). That can be voted on as well, on a national level.

A word of warning for whatever you wish. If you desire religious freedom then you will find others with completely different ideas on religion. It will cause constant strive. Religion would become a constant contest for who owns the churches. Maybe for some that is fun. For some others maybe not.



Personally, I agree with Bare. I'de rather forget about multiple religions. It is like wishing for an emporer, a national government, estates, a king that can excert power, or historical accuracy. Ideals and ideas from the real world that just are not implemented in the game. Play the game as it is.
I had a whole lot of fun helping to create the NA. But, in the end it crashed hard. Like a jumbo jet with too short wings. People at the start of Scotland were right. It just doesn't work without IG controls.

Barerose wrote:
hate the URACE all that you wish, I do as well.....
but we are Missing the boat in this.
the URACS.

....

The Cathedral of St. Andrews (IG) is located in Glasgow Scotland.
It's not gonna change.
The Admins aren't gonna changed that just for us.
We either use that, as a Strictly Scottish Institution (URACS) or like it or not, there will be foriegn Cardnals, & Bishops in there.
If we want to keep Scottish Citizens at the head of our Religionous Institutions, we have to keep Scottish Citizens in there.
If we pull them out, or kill them everytime they come up here to be int here...... they will be replaced with NON SCOTTISH players.
I don't like that.
Not at all.

....

I think the biggest problem in all this, is that people can't wrap their tiny little minds around the fact that the Church has NO borders, and it Never Will. It's not strictly a Glasgow Thing, it's not strictly a Galloway thing, and it's not strictly a Scotland Thing. And You Can't Control That.

Whitesnow wrote:
Korna wrote:
Multiple religions trying to control the IG buildings will never work. Not as long as the IG controls are not designed for it. With only one church building per town only one religion can inhabit it.

The only way to fairly arrange that is by voting. Voting on town level will never work because the bisshop becomes a "religion administrator" just to satisfy and manage the multitude of religions. I would not love to role play such a position.
You could have a voting on county level. But how long will such a voting system last without IG voting controls? From my past experience with the NA it will not last very long.

With the current IG controls I see this only working with one religion in place. That doesn't need to be URAC. It can also be something based on URAC due to a schism (like Bare said). That can be voted on as well, on a national level.

A word of warning for whatever you wish. If you desire religious freedom then you will find others with completely different ideas on religion. It will cause constant strive. Religion would become a constant contest for who owns the churches. Maybe for some that is fun. For some others maybe not.



Personally, I agree with Bare. I'de rather forget about multiple religions. It is like wishing for an emporer, a national government, estates, a king that can excert power, or historical accuracy. Ideals and ideas from the real world that just are not implemented in the game. Play the game as it is.
I had a whole lot of fun helping to create the NA. But, in the end it crashed hard. Like a jumbo jet with too short wings. People at the start of Scotland were right. It just doesn't work without IG controls.

Barerose wrote:
hate the URACE all that you wish, I do as well.....
but we are Missing the boat in this.
the URACS.

....

The Cathedral of St. Andrews (IG) is located in Glasgow Scotland.
It's not gonna change.
The Admins aren't gonna changed that just for us.
We either use that, as a Strictly Scottish Institution (URACS) or like it or not, there will be foriegn Cardnals, & Bishops in there.
If we want to keep Scottish Citizens at the head of our Religionous Institutions, we have to keep Scottish Citizens in there.
If we pull them out, or kill them everytime they come up here to be int here...... they will be replaced with NON SCOTTISH players.
I don't like that.
Not at all.

....

I think the biggest problem in all this, is that people can't wrap their tiny little minds around the fact that the Church has NO borders, and it Never Will. It's not strictly a Glasgow Thing, it's not strictly a Galloway thing, and it's not strictly a Scotland Thing. And You Can't Control That.

Why are you trying to waste our time ? You have nothing to do with Scotland.

Out of town - Travel.

You will find your country there.

Barerose wrote:
~Why There Shouldn't Be Other Faiths Alowed IG~

*edited by Camel for content*

Whitesnow wrote:
Yes please go on.


Alanna_kyles wrote:
One big reason is because what you preach affects The transcendental menu. This in turn affects our ideas and faith points. If we have a mess that is contradicting what we are studying, we will lose faith.

Another lie. Every idea has its opposite. And urace priests can easily bring it too. Its something that I saw myself while being in spanish kingdoms.

I'll repeat it for you old *edited* because it seems I know church way better than you "three day duchess" and I'm army way:

Every idea has its opposite.


None cant have two opposing ideas at once, and it has nothing to do with the priests of different religion.

*edited*

Your power in Glasgow is gone.

*edited by Camel*

Milisa wrote:
For instant clarity this post is OOC. I say this as I have read a great deal that is difficult to differentiate, and difficult to believe is OOC as it should be. I will say that I believe that we all need to look at what has been said and decide - is that really appropriate for the player to say or am I slipping?

Quote :
My job is to get inactive players out of the IG Churches and find new active ones for you. Is hard to find though and I will be honest attitudes have to change if you are going to get active players who are able to do churchway for many are not comfortable with the threats and comments that go on.

I disagree. There are numerous active players whom chose the Church Way path at Level 3 for their characters. Conch, for instance. Kidcool was also Church Way.

These are, however, not players whom roleplay the Aristotlean faith. That is the crux of the issue. It is not active Church Way players but active Artistotlean characters.

I will also say that there are those uncomfortable with the threats, comments, and the excessive obsession to control everything, and I have noted a tendency to mix OOC and IC personally which is very hard to differentiate and clear up, in several whom play higher up characters in the URAC Church. It can be very difficult on both sides. There is perhaps an element of the hostility towards URAC that is offputting for players to choose it as a path for their character, but there is also a hostility from URAC.

And as said by Telcara, yes. The Bishop can place a character of a different faith in the IG Church. It is URAC rules that stop it, not admin or mechanics.

Telcara. wrote:
Milisa wrote:
And as said by Telcara, yes. The Bishop can place a character of a different faith in the IG Church. It is URAC rules that stop it, not admin or mechanics.

Thanks Milisa. It really proves my point.

As for what Bare and Korna said, I actually can't comment unless I'd break forum rules Wink Feel free to message me in private though.

BTW, player behind Whitesnow, I'm trying to keep this thread from getting locked so I'd appreciate it very much if you'd refrain from OOC insults. I don't care about your views on these characters OOC. I do feel that just talking about these things can lead us somewhere in the RP spectre and even though we might disagree in areas, we can disagree without insults of such kind. Thank you.

Whitesnow wrote:
Dont read my posts then. Simple as that.

And btw, there is no "player behind Whitesnow". Its bot.
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PostSubject: Re: The Church   The Church Icon_minitime1Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:38 pm

Barerose wrote:
Ok,
Lets do break this all down into total OOC, an' IG then.

Explain the Procese of:
1) How Priests are chosen,
2) How the Archdiocese of Glasgow is chosen
3) How the Diocesan council is chosen

Yea, it's the Archdiocese of Glasgow, because the Cathedral is in Glasgow City.

Explain it so that even a new level 0, can understand how and what is going on with all this.

NO RP IN IT.
KEEP IT ALL ABOUT IG THOUGH.

Because when ANYONE opens the Church Tab, the only foriegn name on that list is the Pope, and we all know that that is an Admin NPC Character, that everyone in Babel has been askin' when it will be a Playable Character.

Because if all this is due to Moronic "Role-Play" from people that NEVER role-play.............. well that is just another version of the National Assembly (NA) and that is EASY to get around when the right people have the right buttons to push.............. and from all that we can see.
It IS Scottish Citizens that have JUST those Buttons to Push.

Are We Really Letting Non-Existant-Role-Play get in the way of Real Role Play once more? Rolling Eyes
I thought that the NA taught us better then all that :? , but I have been proven wrong on that many times by peoples endless stupidity.

Telcara. wrote:
Barerose wrote:
Because when ANYONE opens the Church Tab, the only foriegn name on that list is the Pope, and we all know that that is an Admin NPC Character, that everyone in Babel has been askin' when it will be a Playable Character.

Was a while ago you last checked the pope right Laughing

Charlotte_de_berry wrote:
I vote for whatever church makes the best rum! That's what we're doing, right?

OOC: LOL @ Snow

Barerose wrote:
Telcara. wrote:
Barerose wrote:
Because when ANYONE opens the Church Tab, the only foriegn name on that list is the Pope, and we all know that that is an Admin NPC Character, that everyone in Babel has been askin' when it will be a Playable Character.

Was a while ago you last checked the pope right Laughing

The Church The_po10

clearly an NPC as shown
Yeah, Eugene is gone, but only to be replaced with another.
Players gotta log in t' survive. 8 days without log in..... yeah that's an Admin.
lvl 3, an' make the needed skills to become Pope in that amount of time..... not likely.

But seriously,
In what I asked, that is what you came up with? Rolling Eyes

I'll ask it again, an' hope that someone more capable can give more then a "tea-de-ha-ha" in it.

Barerose wrote:
Ok,
Lets do break this all down into total OOC, an' IG then.

Explain the Procese of:
1) How Priests are chosen,
2) How the Archdiocese of Glasgow is chosen
3) How the Diocesan council is chosen

Yea, it's the Archdiocese of Glasgow, because the Cathedral is in Glasgow City.

Explain it so that even a new level 0, can understand how and what is going on with all this.

NO RP IN IT.
KEEP IT ALL ABOUT IG THOUGH.

Because when ANYONE opens the Church Tab, the only foriegn name on that list is the Pope, and we all know that that is an Admin NPC Character, that everyone in Babel has been askin' when it will be a Playable Character.

Because if all this is due to Moronic "Role-Play" from people that NEVER role-play.............. well that is just another version of the National Assembly (NA) and that is EASY to get around when the right people have the right buttons to push.............. and from all that we can see.
It IS Scottish Citizens that have JUST those Buttons to Push.

Are We Really Letting Non-Existant-Role-Play get in the way of Real Role Play once more? Rolling Eyes
I thought that the NA taught us better then all that :? , but I have been proven wrong on that many times by peoples endless stupidity.

Because if the Church Way is Set up like the Old National Government...... then it's an EASY Fix.

If these "role-play" positions are what is causing this, then all we need is an Archbishop that isn't afraid t' say NO to people that can't really do anything anyway.

{Camel} wrote:
Please keep in mind that this is an OOC thread. Any insults and derogatory comments will be seen as OOC and could be a violation of our forum rules.

Jaqen wrote:
Alanna_kyles wrote:
Dry, I will not apologize for dismissing Swampi out of her office. I was asked to do so from Rome officials, and if you wish to see the document, I will post it here.
Quote :

I take my vows on this day [XXX]

In front of my peers and in front of every Aristotelian, I, [XXX], ordained by [XXX], [XXX], in [XXX] in [ XXX]

I swear not to carry weapons of battle except the ceremonial weapons related to my nobility or which are merely customary.

I swear not to found a family, and vow celibacy and not to adopt any children.

I swear to be an example to follow in giving preference to study instead of looking for wealth (even if I am already a "Theologian of the Universal Roman Aristotelian Church") and I commit myself to the true Faith and all the faithful.

I swear obedience to the hierarchy proclaimed by Christos, to the dogma, and to the canon law.

You guys should probably have a word with admin then and have the Pope removed because as far as I'm aware this is a historical role playing game, 1400s, the Pope is named Innocentius which is a clear reference to Cibo, Pope at almost this time named Innocent who fathered at the very least two children, fathered not adopted, and claims go that he fathered up to sixteen. Now y'all are gonna say but this is rk blah blah blah, well we all know what URACE is based on and its clear who Innocentius is based on. If adoption can lead to dismissal, mail the admins and tell them to get rid of the Pope, and remind them they also can't use Alexander (Innocents successor, because Borgia was far more controversial than the previous.)

If you guys are gonna stick to a set of strict guidelines you may as well apply it universally or else why bother at all.

Barerose wrote:
Ok,
Lets do break this all down into total OOC, an' IG then.

Explain the Procese of:
1) How Priests are chosen,
2) How the Archdiocese of Glasgow is chosen
3) How the Diocesan council is chosen

Yea, it's the Archdiocese of Glasgow, because the Cathedral is in Glasgow City.

Explain it so that even a new level 0, can understand how and what is going on with all this.

Because if all this is due to Moronic "Role-Play" from people that NEVER role-play.............. well that is just another version of the National Assembly (NA) and that is EASY to get around when the right people have the right buttons to push.............. and from all that we can see.
It IS Scottish Citizens that have JUST those Buttons to Push.

1) If there is only one active priest within a town wishing to fill the church they are allowed to, no matter the faith.

If there is more than one active priest and they are of different religion then the active populace of the town is asked who they would prefer, mayor's mass mail could be used, list the names, religions and short summary, the one with the most support is allowed the church.

If there is more than one active priest of same religion wanting control of the church I can see no reason as to why they can't rotate control of the church say every few months.

2) All the active church types within the area whom want said position put their names forward, again mails could be utilised to see who has most support. Most support taking it.

3) No idea anything about that in this game.

(In the mails you would obviously have to state that the reply would be shown to others no biggie choosing a religion, and if worst comes to worst you can always hide the name.)

Or was all that so mind blowingly non-apparent and genius that only possibly I could have come up with it and I'm some sort of RK Luther? :\

A Scottish citizen TOLD to press buttons by foreigners, try to keep up now.

Jaqen wrote:
Quote :
Article 9 - Bill of Rights

A DECLARATION OF RIGHTS made by the representatives of the good people of Scotland, assembled in this free Convention; which rights do pertain to them, and their posterity, as the basis and foundation of government.

i) That all Scottish citizens are by nature equally free and independent, and have certain inherent rights, of which, when they enter into a state of society, they cannot, by any compact, deprive or divest their posterity; namely, the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the means of acquiring and possessing property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety. Those inherent rights of Scottish citizens protected from government oppression are:
* freedom to move freely within all of Scotland,
* freedom from unfair taxation,
* freedom to petition the Monarch and his Steward to redress grievances,
* freedom from being drafted into an army,
* freedom to have arms for defence,
* freedom to worship as one’s consciences deems,
* freedom from a state imposed religion,

* freedom of speech and to assemble lawfully,
* freedom from discrimination,
* freedom from fines, prison terms and capital punishment without trial,
* right to an appeal through trial by jury of ones peers,

Thinking about it, technically you church people could be in for some decapitation, breaching the constitution is high treason, high treason has no dead line to be tried within and all of you have breached it. You have attempted to impose a state religion and not only that but discriminated against those of other faith.

Aye the constitution is no longer here, but all of these people within the church were when it was here and they all controlled the church in the same way as they do now so there is a valid case against any. Smile

Korna wrote:
Milisa wrote:
I will also say that there are those uncomfortable with the threats, comments, and the excessive obsession to control everything, and I have noted a tendency to mix OOC and IC personally which is very hard to differentiate and clear up, in several whom play higher up characters in the URAC Church. It can be very difficult on both sides. There is perhaps an element of the hostility towards URAC that is offputting for players to choose it as a path for their character, but there is also a hostility from URAC.

And as said by Telcara, yes. The Bishop can place a character of a different faith in the IG Church. It is URAC rules that stop it, not admin or mechanics.
The hostility is not good. Especially in OOC. In the case of RP... well maybe it needs to be played dirty to get changes.

Regarding the Bishop, I don't see why a URAC (or any other religion) Bishop would want to put other faiths in the church buildings. What would force the Bishop to do so? The will of the people? That hasn't worked so far. The situation did not change from 4 years ago.



Jaqen wrote:

Barerose wrote:
Ok,
Lets do break this all down into total OOC, an' IG then.

Explain the Procese of:
1) How Priests are chosen,
2) How the Archdiocese of Glasgow is chosen
3) How the Diocesan council is chosen

Yea, it's the Archdiocese of Glasgow, because the Cathedral is in Glasgow City.

Explain it so that even a new level 0, can understand how and what is going on with all this.

Because if all this is due to Moronic "Role-Play" from people that NEVER role-play.............. well that is just another version of the National Assembly (NA) and that is EASY to get around when the right people have the right buttons to push.............. and from all that we can see.
It IS Scottish Citizens that have JUST those Buttons to Push.

1) If there is only one active priest within a town wishing to fill the church they are allowed to, no matter the faith.

If there is more than one active priest and they are of different religion then the active populace of the town is asked who they would prefer, mayor's mass mail could be used, list the names, religions and short summary, the one with the most support is allowed the church.

If there is more than one active priest of same religion wanting control of the church I can see no reason as to why they can't rotate control of the church say every few months.

2) All the active church types within the area whom want said position put their names forward, again mails could be utilised to see who has most support. Most support taking it.

3) No idea anything about that in this game.

(In the mails you would obviously have to state that the reply would be shown to others no biggie choosing a religion, and if worst comes to worst you can always hide the name.)

Or was all that so mind blowingly non-apparent and genius that only possibly I could have come up with it and I'm some sort of RK Luther? :\

A Scottish citizen TOLD to press buttons by foreigners, try to keep up now.

What you propose is how most of the voting systems in RK work. The problem is that what your propose is not coded in the IG controls.
How long you think something like this would last? I don't say it won't be fun and perhaps it will work for a while. But as soon as activity of those involved goes down then the religious freedom is gone. The church system goes back to its default state. A new bishop is assigned, likely a URAC bishop, and he/she might have an interest to assign priests from other religions or maybe not...

So it might work for a while. But don't pretend it will last.


Your second post regarding the constitution, I assume it to be IC :p

Jaqen wrote:
Nothing is coded making religion specific to URACE, it says only those with the buttons can make rules on who they press the buttons for. It would last long enough for more people to become interested in the church path and for those whom don't play their characters as worshipping Jah, as well as awakening the URACE from withering away in their hidey holes debating dogma and who to excommunicate for talking to a robber.

The only thing opening up the church to every religion can do is promote activity and role play not hinder it. If we wind up with a URACE person in control of placing priests, they can oocly place a worshipper of any faith within a church and role play their characters distaste at the fact a town would let a heathen lead them spiritually.

and you would assume correctly

Sepia wrote:
I've already agreed to talk with Conch, and those others interested in how we can work religion in Scotland and we should come up with something mutally beneficial. So for those who keep saying we arn't doing anything, we will be as I've mentioned before.

Alanna is offering to remove all the Priest's in Glasgow as it's something that has been repeatedly asked for and she's willing to give you what you want, and then we will RP our positions as I at least have done before, and it at least gives everybody an equal footing until something more permanent is sorted out.
Quote :

Explain the Procese of:
1) How Priests are chosen,
2) How the Archdiocese of Glasgow is chosen
3) How the Diocesan council is chosen

Priest's are chosen by the Bishop, generally it's somebody that follows the URAC and is willing to take the vow to be ordained. The Bishop is chosen by the other Bishops in the ESPC, and is generally somebody who is highly active in the Church, and preferably local to the diocese. The Diocesan council is chosen by the Bishop and there are no strict rules on it, I did used to put people of other religions onto the diocesan council so they could gain easy PVD, and there is no ingame coding for the council either.

Also to correct something the transcendental menu has nothing to do with being a Priest, it's to do with Preaching, so people preaching conflicting ideas will eventually cause to lose faith and eventually to become Godless which isn't coded yet but is meant to be quite bad!

Barerose wrote:
Look,
Religion IG DOES NOT EXIST.
It's ALL Role Play

Only Church Way Players, Churchs, Cathedrals, & Structure Does exist IG.

Those Vows set up by the URAC for Preists to take,
That is all MADE UP BY PLAYERS not ADIMINS.

As Far as I know,
There is Abosulutely Nothing stopping the head of a Cathedral, to instiute their OWN R.P. Religion (so long as they don't breach Admin Law in it by using an ACTUAL RL Religion) for Role-Playable purposes.

So if that is the case............ Alanna has the ability to make this the URACS.
Has NOTHING to do with RL Catholisism, the Church of England, or anything else really.
And if that is the case........ WHY ARE WE KILLING HER! WHY are we hindering her, when it is her that can do this for us? She isn't in England, she is right here. And if she is continued to be harassed, she WON'T do it.
She allready said that she would promote Scottish Priests into these positions, but it is the STATE of Glasgow that is Hindering her from Doing So.
This is BEYOND stupid.

Again.
Could someone who knows, PLEASE post the IG Structure of the Church System.

NOT - Anything about Other Religions (because that is all RP not IG)
NOT - "I think it needs to be done this way <-> or that way"
NOT - Anything to do with the Forums, Voting, Mails, Etc etc etc.
Just the Actual IG Struture of the Church Functions.
Who Has The Buttons?
What are the Buttons?

Beak it all down to the Bare-Bones (aka IG only) and the sollution to this fiasco will be easy to find..... don't complicate it with False-Forum-Role-Play.

Because this is all False when it comes to IG Funtions:

Quote :
1) If there is only one active priest within a town wishing to fill the church they are allowed to, no matter the faith.

If there is more than one active priest and they are of different religion then the active populace of the town is asked who they would prefer, mayor's mass mail could be used, list the names, religions and short summary, the one with the most support is allowed the church.

If there is more than one active priest of same religion wanting control of the church I can see no reason as to why they can't rotate control of the church say every few months.

2) All the active church types within the area whom want said position put their names forward, again mails could be utilised to see who has most support. Most support taking it.

3) No idea anything about that in this game.

(In the mails you would obviously have to state that the reply would be shown to others no biggie choosing a religion, and if worst comes to worst you can always hide the name.)

Or was all that so mind blowingly non-apparent and genius that only possibly I could have come up with it and I'm some sort of RK Luther? :\

A Scottish citizen TOLD to press buttons by foreigners, try to keep up now.

Mind Blowing?
No!
It's setting the Cathedral Up to FAIL, just like the NA set up the Kingdom to FAIL.

Because Voting, Gathering Public Suport, Signing petitions, Rising up in the Streets, conducting Forum Polls does abolutely nothing when the person with the IG Function says, "Nah, I'm not gonna do it that way."

Sepia wrote:
Bishops are appointed by Admins after they have been voted on by the ESPC. Bishops are able to appoint Priests, and get a share of the PVD.

Priest's can set up mass twice a week, change the time of the 2nd mass and also change the Church message. Again they get PVD. As far as I'm aware they have to be level 3 Church way, but I think I did hear a rumour about other ways being able to be appointed but I've never confirmed it.

Diocese council, can't do anything but they get a share of PVD.

Barerose wrote:
Sepia wrote:
I've already agreed to talk with Conch, and those others interested in how we can work religion in Scotland and we should come up with something mutally beneficial. So for those who keep saying we arn't doing anything, we will be as I've mentioned before.

Alanna is offering to remove all the Priest's in Glasgow as it's something that has been repeatedly asked for and she's willing to give you what you want, and then we will RP our positions as I at least have done before, and it at least gives everybody an equal footing until something more permanent is sorted out.
Quote :

Explain the Procese of:
1) How Priests are chosen,
2) How the Archdiocese of Glasgow is chosen
3) How the Diocesan council is chosen

Priest's are chosen by the Bishop, generally it's somebody that follows the URAC and is willing to take the vow to be ordained. The Bishop is chosen by the other Bishops in the ESPC, and is generally somebody who is highly active in the Church, and preferably local to the diocese. The Diocesan council is chosen by the Bishop and there are no strict rules on it, I did used to put people of other religions onto the diocesan council so they could gain easy PVD, and there is no ingame coding for the council either.

Also to correct something the transcendental menu has nothing to do with being a Priest, it's to do with Preaching, so people preaching conflicting ideas will eventually cause to lose faith and eventually to become Godless which isn't coded yet but is meant to be quite bad!

Thank you Sephia, that helps A LOT! Yer Awesome.

The only thing that scares me in that whole (we'll just RP it, and close all the Churches) is that it is satisfing a few, in order to stall the rest.

Active Churches are needed. We need active preists in there to conduct mass, preach, play the game in the "way" they chose, etc etc etc.

And well lest face it........... some of Church Way is Coded.
Why Not let those that chose that way USE IT.

The Number 1 complaint in RK is that the Ways aren't completed, and you can't do anything once you do LvL....... Why Add More To That?
Kinda Stupid if you ask me.

I mean.... You have to have XXXXX amount of Church Points to make it to LVL 4............ why kill that for our LVL 3's right out of the Gate for Stupid things done on Fourm Role-Play (that never gets Rp'd).

1 more question to add to that all....

How are they ALL removed?

Sepia wrote:
I agree on the PVD, it's why I used to appoint people to the diocean council who weren't URAC.

TBH it would help the Church if more of it was coded, they have so much planned for it but it just never materialises!

Priest's are removed by the Bishop, the Bishop is removed again by admins after being voted on by the ESPC.

Jaqen wrote:
I don't think you understand much of what has gone on within ig Scotland nor much of what is going on but PLEASE DO CONTINUE TO CAPITAL MASH UNTIL PEOPLE BELIEVE YOU DO.

Barerose wrote:

So if that is the case............ Alanna has the ability to make this the URACS.
Has NOTHING to do with RL Catholisism, the Church of England, or anything else really.

Aye, totally, nothing at all, we just have a pope and catholic positions and the likes, not to mention a pope named after a real life pope of the time (well its almost his time). The Pope has nothing at all to do with any real life religions nor does Pope Innocent they are both completely fictitious concepts the game creators dreamt up.


Barerose wrote:
And if that is the case........ WHY ARE WE KILLING HER! WHY are we hindering her, when it is her that can do this for us? She isn't in England, she is right here. And if she is continued to be harassed, she WON'T do it.
She allready said that she would promote Scottish Priests into these positions, but it is the STATE of Glasgow that is Hindering her from Doing So.
This is BEYOND stupid.
Aye, right here contributing to the death of activity within the church. Many church ways do you think there are compared to Army/State? Why are the church ways so outnumbered? Because those in control of "the church" restrict it and run it as a clique with an iron fist. I don't care if she will promote Scottish URACE priests, will she promote Scottish priests whom worship a different faith?

Barerose wrote:
Quote :
1) If there is only one active priest within a town wishing to fill the church they are allowed to, no matter the faith.

If there is more than one active priest and they are of different religion then the active populace of the town is asked who they would prefer, mayor's mass mail could be used, list the names, religions and short summary, the one with the most support is allowed the church.

If there is more than one active priest of same religion wanting control of the church I can see no reason as to why they can't rotate control of the church say every few months.

2) All the active church types within the area whom want said position put their names forward, again mails could be utilised to see who has most support. Most support taking it.

3) No idea anything about that in this game.

(In the mails you would obviously have to state that the reply would be shown to others no biggie choosing a religion, and if worst comes to worst you can always hide the name.)

Or was all that so mind blowingly non-apparent and genius that only possibly I could have come up with it and I'm some sort of RK Luther? :\

A Scottish citizen TOLD to press buttons by foreigners, try to keep up now.

Mind Blowing?
No!
It's setting the Cathedral Up to FAIL, just like the NA set up the Kingdom to FAIL.

Pay attention and you may be able to understand things, concentrate on words, sentences and reading them rather than capitalising everything you say.

Barerose wrote:
Because Voting, Gathering Public Suport, Signing petitions, Rising up in the Streets, conducting Forum Polls does abolutely nothing when the person with the IG Function says, "Nah, I'm not gonna do it that way."

Are you a bit slow? Thats why we are discussing this in here with people who have buttons? Or did that never occur to you? The majority of what I write isn't intended for you to implement it's intended for the two within this thread with the power.


As for the other posts:

Maybe the admins don't implement any of the other ideas to further the church way because its a dead way, hardly any player chooses to level their character church way because its a dead end and not in regards to coding but in regards to managing to stay ordained.

Now if the church were to become a honeypot of activity do you think the admins would be more inclined to implement church stuff then? When it caters for a larger segment of the community? Because as it stands State and Army way are the majority customer followed by science more than likely. Its simple business management, if you can't cater for the entire customer base you cater for the majority segment before moving on to a lesser one.

Korna wrote:
Jaqen, remember you are insulting someone while OOC. The snide remarks do not help to achieve what you want.

You and Bare are pretty much saying the same thing. Bare wants to focus on the controls so we can come up with something that is as close as possible to restrictions placed by the game.
We disagree on the RP fabricated rules. On the other hand, I guess you will need at least some. But, they need to be very very simple.

Jaqen wrote:

Thats why we are discussing this in here with people who have buttons? Or did that never occur to you? The majority of what I write isn't intended for you to implement it's intended for the two within this thread with the power.
It is important to include those that can currently push the buttons. However, you seem to think it will be different if they are not in control? I don't agree. Neither can they alone change the current situation. If we want change then we will need support from the majority of the Scottish players and vote on a proposal for change. That 'might' give enough leverage with Admin to care and support it. Otherwise the ESPC might mail Admin with a new name for a Scottish bishop that will keep URAC in place.

It might be worth a try, freedom of religion. You might be right that diversity will wake up the church way. If it catches on we have something new. If it does not then people will default back to the current situation. Then someone else can try with a new approach and that is just fine.


@Sepia, Thanks for sharing the information!

Sepia wrote:
Quote :
Maybe the admins don't implement any of the other ideas to further the church way because its a dead way, hardly any player chooses to level their character church way because its a dead end and not in regards to coding but in regards to managing to stay ordained.

Actually I would say that it's because the Admins have been working on the medicine route, as they have even less coded in game than Church. You will also find that medicine and church way are the least populated and I believe that this is because they are the least coded. The main pull of the Church way is the roleplay anyway, the ingame mechanics don't really do anything. You can set up mass.... great so people can be happier and get faith points, but wait ... faith points aren't worth anything at the moment, and if you have full stats being happier isn't a good thing lol.

It's also an admin rule that RL & RK religion shouldn't be mixed, and while we all know that they are very similar there are some very big differences and I'm sure it was easier to go with a recognised known structure than make up their own. Though now the URAC has changed so much from RL religion that it's only the structure and the basics that are similar, we have our own saints and stories that have nothing to do with RL. It's also to stop people who are religious in RL getting too passionate for lack of a better word with IG religion, so it's in everyones interest not to mix them up OOC or IC otherwise people could get rather heated.

Would be interesting to try it for a while though, I would want to appoint Priests on activity levels rather than people voting in their favourite though. That way it won't just be a popularity contest, but anybody who worked hard enough would be able to get it. Would be interesting to see who would come out of the woodwork if given the opportunity, in the meantime I have asked the Admins for further clarification just to make sure it would be okay.

Korna wrote:
Sepia wrote:
Would be interesting to try it for a while though, I would want to appoint Priests on activity levels rather than people voting in their favourite though. That way it won't just be a popularity contest, but anybody who worked hard enough would be able to get it. Would be interesting to see who would come out of the woodwork if given the opportunity, in the meantime I have asked the Admins for further clarification just to make sure it would be okay.

Good point. Whoever gets elected is neither always the right person for the job. Selection through activity has the negative effect of favorism/cronyism. However, I've never seen this very strongly in RK.

Telcara. wrote:
Sepia wrote:
I've already agreed to talk with Conch, and those others interested in how we can work religion in Scotland and we should come up with something mutally beneficial. So for those who keep saying we arn't doing anything, we will be as I've mentioned before.

Alanna is offering to remove all the Priest's in Glasgow as it's something that has been repeatedly asked for and she's willing to give you what you want, and then we will RP our positions as I at least have done before, and it at least gives everybody an equal footing until something more permanent is sorted out.
Quote :

Explain the Procese of:
1) How Priests are chosen,
2) How the Archdiocese of Glasgow is chosen
3) How the Diocesan council is chosen

Priest's are chosen by the Bishop, generally it's somebody that follows the URAC and is willing to take the vow to be ordained. The Bishop is chosen by the other Bishops in the ESPC, and is generally somebody who is highly active in the Church, and preferably local to the diocese. The Diocesan council is chosen by the Bishop and there are no strict rules on it, I did used to put people of other religions onto the diocesan council so they could gain easy PVD, and there is no ingame coding for the council either.

Also to correct something the transcendental menu has nothing to do with being a Priest, it's to do with Preaching, so people preaching conflicting ideas will eventually cause to lose faith and eventually to become Godless which isn't coded yet but is meant to be quite bad!

Thank you Sepia! Very Happy I know its hard for your character's RP so I'm very happy that you are trying to find solutions.

I've heard and read some discussion about the Godless thing. As long as it isn't coded and admin have made no notions of doing it, we really shouldn't worry about it. To be honest I don't think it will happen. Did you read the translation of the live chat with the admins? They stated they had a lot of ideas for medicine way, got sidetracked and then bored and realized it wouldn't work out as well. And then they just left it like that, less than half finished. I didn't get the feeling they'd do anything about it from what they said in that live chat.

I think I will step back a bit, and allow time for you and Conch to discuss the matter (and other interested people).

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It is Sunday for me , Jah Bless us all


" I've always been here...
I reached these shores on the Winds of a Great Storm
I've see it all
I've seen them Fall
Some of them were my Kinsmen.
Some of them I have never met.
But I know their names , and those I shall not Forget.
Fallen heroes who gave their lives for their lands.
For their people.
For their love.
For things they believed in.
And so many more were lost...
As long as there is something worth dying for,
brave men shall die.
But none of them shall die forever in our hearts.
Never forget them.
Never forget what they gave to us.
Freedom
A world worth living in.
No my friends , we shall not forget.
Never.
Farewell...
We might meet again someday.
And then I shall have another tale for you.
Another story to remember."

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