Welcome to Ireland, Wombat. Now go back where you came from.

Not real comfortable with defining differences in the player community by age. Perhaps because usually my age group suffers in that. I would hope I don't fit the mold for the over-30-RPG'er profile for sure.

I do think that the RK community is pretty diverse though, and I think it's prolly unfair to try to categorize us all by age, gender, or anything else because of that.

Okay, back to talking about censors.....

Kaireth - starting with your well thought out posts
a lot of what you have described in the first part of your post is included in the oath that censors sign when they become censors - there are examples and follow up discussion threads in a specific training forum that is moderated by Swallow and a couple of the other hc - this area was created based on Goldfishès training thread which we fished bck up out of the depths of the censor forums, and then expanded upon

using the training area has been based on the honour system - it is open to everyone, but no one is forced to go there - many of the new censors do take advatage of this support, but there are some that feel they know well enough already and never enter it - Swallow deals with all player complaints about censors - if she sees a recurring pattern with a junior, she notifies the hc of that area to follow them more closely and offer them more support - they may be strongly encouraged to work in the training area as well - dismissal will follow if there aren't changes - a process has been in place for the last year to remove censors that are not following the oaths, making their checks, or refusing to participate - first letters are sent to the censor mail account, then followed up with in the player account if they are not responded to

regarding fantasy RP not being allowed in the main forum, that is a directive received from the game owners - the weald was created to allow this type of RP - I have never liked the split, as it is sometimes difficult to make the distinction - several people that I knew that were playing their characters as vamps or angels or fairies had to adjust their play accordingly - I don't think the injunction against it will be lifted

OOC is another really tough area to work with - we as players know that most of the nastiest attacks occur when people are mixing OOC and IC in posts - as a result of having many problems with this, the game owners decreed that the forum is to be pure role play with the exception of the Lounge - I believe there is a modification to this posted on the forum which allows for an OOC thread to be created to support an RP thread. This is an area where a lot of censors need support, as it is difficult to judge what is OOC and IC, and sometimes threads get locked down as a result. The mentors and the training area encourage censors to contact the posters and ask what the intent of the posts are before they are removed. From the comments in this thread and others, it looks like this isn`t happening consistently.

in regards to the Spam threads - the main argument against them is that they are not RP and violate the edict that the forums are to be fully RP - I agree that it makes more sense to allow a spam thread to keep the nonsense out of other threads - there have been several discussions in the censor forums to try and develop consistency from area to area - the last general poll that I saw on this topic voted to not allow Spam threads in RP areas (this was when I moved the thread out of the Highlands Hall) - this decision may have been reversed. Two county wide game threads in the Inn were allowed as well.

I agree fully with your comments on censors using a light touch. Again, the game owners made it clear that any questioning of the admin or censors was not to be allowed on the forum - there is one venue that can be used, though. Questions for censors and forum administration may be posted in the Zoo Central: Q & A for censors in forum 2. Swallow, Badger, and two of the hc are assigned to this area to answer questions, and will respond. This area does not see much use, although it is mentioned in the rules under post placement.

The current censor structure consists of teams of juniors that are assigned to an area with one or two head censors -censors cannot see any areas that they are not assigned to. (On the rosters, I see that they are now identified as forum moderators, so Badger was able to push that change through - he was working on it for the last year with celsius). Each junior is assigned specific areas to check, and the hc are there as back up, or to answer questions. Most hc go through the most active areas on a twice daily basis as well. Swallow provides support to the censor team, and deals with all complaints - she also stays in close touch with the heads, keeping tabs on how they are doing and if any of the juniors need more suport - there is an area in the hc forum area where concerns can be brought as well - I will mail her today to see if we can get feedback on your proposal for censor reviews and how to conduct them

I agree that the format of the rules in SK is nicer - the wording of many of the rules is almost identical - the Spam rule, inappropriate content rules and post placement rules evolved in RK over the last 5 years as a result of lots of inappropriate postings - apparently SK did not see a need for those, nor have they had difficulties with groups of players that post in that manner on a consistent basis - RK has had these problems as recently as 6 months ago

Kaireth wrote:

Not real comfortable with defining differences in the player community by age. Perhaps because usually my age group suffers in that. I would hope I don't fit the mold for the over-30-RPG'er profile for sure.

I do think that the RK community is pretty diverse though, and I think it's prolly unfair to try to categorize us all by age, gender, or anything else because of that.

Okay, back to talking about censors.....

I'm not ageist and I'm more then happy to not know anyone's IRL age

There's just a shocking trend between the people that hate me most IG being all roughly the same age IRL (I'd list them out here, but don't want to suggest RL info, plus if you know me, you can probably name 4-5 people that hate me, lol).

On the other hand all my really good friend IG are roughly the same age as well, I'm sure the average age of my ship's passenger list would be around my RL age as well . . . coincidence . . . I don't believe in such things

(And I wasn't talking about you Kaireth, despite you forcing me to RP )

*Cracks her RP whip at Sephie and Lance.*

(By the way Lance- I'm 78 and I'm actually a hairy old man with warts on my bum. Enjoy that image as we write. ^^ )

Okay, back to business.

OOC is not automatically the same as flaming/baiting though. I think a big part of the problem in RK is that the instinct to create new rules and restrictions to try to eliminate problems has actually created more problems than it solved. Sometimes a direct, simple interpretation of a rule and direct, simple application of it is better than evolving a new, more specific rule to cover each and every little variation on a situation.

So someone starts an OOC thread-- no big deal that it's OOC. If it's about how to manage town and county closures, it's productive and important to the community. If it's an OOC companion thread to an RP, it's again entirely important and good for the community. (Also, OOC companion threads are really common on other role playing forums.) Some posts may become heated and inappropriate during an OOC discussion on closures, but that's easy enough to deal with. If it's IC, split it to a new IC thread. If it's just purely a harassing/baiting/flaming violation, edit/warn/poll/ban as necessary. It just doesn't require a rule to say no OOC allowed. Same for spam threads. I'm not even sure how that evolved as a perceived need since I don't see how it could lead to rule violations.

Corinna, I understand what you're saying that a lot of this has come down from admins, but that doesn't mean it has to stand as is. They change their interpretation of edicts regularly, right? Sometimes we all try things that don't work as well as we'd hoped. The people at Celsius are no exception. Why not ask them to reconsider some of their stances if it will make the censor system more effective and less strenuous for both players and censors? Also NK and SK don't seem to have the same censorship organizations that RK has. I can't speak to NK very well as I've been in retreat there for so long now, but as I recall, it was much different from both SK and RK. To me that seems like a strong argument that there can be some flexibility here.

Lastly, and maybe this should have been first, I think uneven application of the rules and inconsistent action by censors in RK is one of the biggest problems right now. The series of PM's and public announcements that went on around the closing of Ireland's spam thread is a good example of this. A censor shut it down for being too long. A day or two later an HC declared there was to be no spam thread at all. A day or two after that admins said one spam thread was permissible via PM. And finally there was complete silence on it rather than any final public decision. The censor council needs to be way more consistent and I think one of the keys here is they need to work on their own internal communication probably. A lot of my contacts with censors and admins at different levels have given me the impression that the whole organization is very fractured and disconnected.

Many people lie about RL, main point I noticed is age, the rest are appearance, career, grades or where they're from. A lot of teens etc claim to be older than me, when they're actually in reality younger. Heck I don't even want to delve into what connotations that could have around sexual relationships online, just saying that most people probably cyber with others who are either not legit or old enough to be their parents or grandparents. I've noticed such things like this coming out more and more, people that I thought I knew. Make believe whole stories of who they are RL... So meh. It tends to be rather obvious, when they're a. immature b. don' know what on Earth they're talking about when attempting serious convo e.g. the details c. tend to want power/ politcal roles online. I would only now believe a few people online, who are quite open and that I know wouldn't lie or spew verbal diarrhea via their gob. I've heard of oldies say parent's age claiming to be late teens even. Don't ask why, even in RL people make believe. It depends on the individual whether they're cool. Also the ones who are sooo into RK tend to have nothing better to do. I.e. RP being hot social butterfly to compensate. Everyone's shit stinks meh.

Edit: Tbh am not fussed over management, as long as it is fairly reasonable. Find something that's interesting or fun and stick to it. If it gets worn out then can move along. Afterall am not paying for the game, just there.

My sister and I used to go on Yahoo and start cybering with guys and halfway through say, "You know, I'm a man. LOL" Ah, good times.


I'm hot. Social, not so much. I can go days without talking to anyone IRL. My typing fingers have a mind of their own.

Kaireth wrote:

(By the way Lance- I'm 78 and I'm actually a hairy old man with warts on my bum. Enjoy that image as we write. ^^ )

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder .

LJS wrote:

The Renaissance Kingdoms is growing and it has become necessary for forum space to be reserved for RP purpose only. The only part of the RK forum that will now host the posting of OOC material will be The Lounge.
As such, private forums will be reserved for RP groups related to the RK only. Request made for private forums that are not dedicated to the RK and the RP of its daily existence will be no longer be granted. No additional OOC group forums will be opened from this date forward . We will work with the current OOC groups who do have subforums to find a workable solution. These groups as well will be closed in the future once the admins have found a solution to having these forums hosted elsewhere. (July 21, 2007)

to be honest, I don't see any wiggle room with this one - no OOC - all the private OOC forums were closed shortly after this date, and none of the Game owners have been willing to rescind this decree

Quote :

They change their interpretation of edicts regularly, right? Sometimes we all try things that don't work as well as we'd hoped. The people at Celsius are no exception. Why not ask them to reconsider some of their stances if it will make the censor system more effective and less strenuous for both players and censors?

realistically, this is Celsius we are dealing with - do you expect any different? It took a year of constant discussion to get censors changed to forum moderators for crying out loud.

NK and SK have been built on corrections to the mistakes that Celsius made in the past - their censor structure is less complicated,as is their player base and as are their rules. They took what we found worked here, and used it. Many of their players are drawn from RK - they already know how these types of browser games work, and they like playing them. For some reason RK attracts some really out there personalities like Malachia,Nickyl, Urshak, Dugustus, Dark Devil, Anto, and countless other imitators that seem to think that they need to push the limits of what has been laid out. I agree, if people would just use their common sense and RP, life would be a whole lot easier for censors and for players. The rules and layout of RK were a lot simpler once too - then people started making the forums hell for other people just for the fun of it.

I would love to see things more flexible and open - in my perfect world, mods would just read RP, and move threads where they are requested. Reality of dealing with baiters and flamers of every stripe has jaded me to the point that I an't ever see that happening - at least not in RK.


Telcara, the interpretation of the PG-13 rule is one I would prefer we didn't have to use too - its actually a ToU hat we can't get around either - the censors havre had numerous discussions amongst themselves and with the game owners - keep getting back the same reply - no use of the harsher sexually derived words (such as fuck) or placeholders for them - this is slightly different than movies, which allows their usage one to four times, provided that the word is used as an expletive and not with a sexual meaning

the actually message from the game owners is on file in the censor area - can't see them rescinding this one any time soon either, even when it seems as stupid as it is - do you remmber when all of the "gifts from Jah" were rewritten? someone pointed out that the strange smoke one was prooting marijuana usage, and did not comply with the rating either - also why the "smoke circle" thread quietly disappeared

Quote :

Anto,

Really? Anto's just about the average gamer but possibly more polite. Try logging into Hobowars for a few days and you'll know what extreme is. I don't know those other people but Anto should never, ever be put in the same sentence with Nickyl.


LJS's decision was made in 2007...when the game was "growing." I think it's fair to say that it's been shrinking, and the forums get purged, so there's not much point in being so rigid.

Yes, NK and SK forums have learned from the mistakes of RK, so why can't RK learn from them as well? All this sounds like is the admin and the censors have given up on the game as much as the players have.

lol you are right Elois, Anto is notorious for reasons other than Nickyl - but his name does belong with the others in that list

I wouldn't say the Game Admin and censors have given up on the game - rather that they have give up on trying to reason with Celsius

they have been making changes in areas that they can control, like censor supports (the training area and feedback systems that Swallow implemented and oversees) - I know they are not closeminded - their hands are tied in a lot of different areas regarding the game, and a lot of the forum rules

What good is censor support if you still behave like twats?

Corinna wrote:

LJS wrote:

The Renaissance Kingdoms is growing and it has become necessary for forum space to be reserved for RP purpose only. The only part of the RK forum that will now host the posting of OOC material will be The Lounge.
As such, private forums will be reserved for RP groups related to the RK only. Request made for private forums that are not dedicated to the RK and the RP of its daily existence will be no longer be granted. No additional OOC group forums will be opened from this date forward . We will work with the current OOC groups who do have subforums to find a workable solution. These groups as well will be closed in the future once the admins have found a solution to having these forums hosted elsewhere. (July 21, 2007)

to be honest, I don't see any wiggle room with this one - no OOC - all the private OOC forums were closed shortly after this date, and none of the Game owners have been willing to rescind this decree

I've brought this point before elsewhere: "The Renaissance Kingdoms is growing and it has become necessary" <<- really ? Situation is quite different nowadays, if it would be, there wouldnt be merge/deletion of towns/counties.

Corinna wrote:

NK and SK have been built on corrections to the mistakes that Celsius made in the past - their censor structure is less complicated,as is their player base and as are their rules. They took what we found worked here, and used it. Many of their players are drawn from RK - they already know how these types of browser games work, and they like playing them. For some reason RK attracts some really out there personalities like Malachia,Nickyl, Urshak, Dugustus, Dark Devil, Anto, and countless other imitators that seem to think that they need to push the limits of what has been laid out. I agree, if people would just use their common sense and RP, life would be a whole lot easier for censors and for players. The rules and layout of RK were a lot simpler once too - then people started making the forums hell for other people just for the fun of it.

What has Dark Devil done so bad ? Imo he was kinda harmless.

agreed that the game is no longer growing - the server space the forums take up however is huge - this is their rationale

the last time I recall the forum admins asking for clarification on this was about 6 months ago - the answer was that it remains an edict - the edict is the same for NK and SK as well thus the no OOC clause in their rules

DD, Anto ad Urshak gave rise to many of the anticloning rule that we have - this was DD's major contribution as a baddie in the early parts of the game - he also had input on a lot of the rules and censor structure, from what I understand

he also helped to shape the fabric of the RK forums

So, you're saying Anto is a cloner?

Corinna wrote:

agreed that the game is no longer growing - the server space the forums take up however is huge - this is their rationale

the last time I recall the forum admins asking for clarification on this was about 6 months ago - the answer was that it remains an edict - the edict is the same for NK and SK as well thus the no OOC clause in their rules

DD, Anto ad Urshak gave rise to many of the anticloning rule that we have - this was DD's major contribution as a baddie in the early parts of the game - he also had input on a lot of the rules and censor structure, from what I understand

he also helped to shape the fabric of the RK forums

were do you get off.

everyone knows that ANTO hates Clones.

Maybe it's not about that these people were actually cloning, but others accusing them of doing it. I was accused myself quite some times as being cheater, simply for playing evil char.

lol

not saying anyone is anything ... just reminding people that a lot of our rules and crap that we have now evolved because different people pushed the rules in diffferent ways ...

Dry asked what it was that DarkDevil did that was so special .... my answer is that DD admitted to running in game clones, as did Dugustus, and Urshak ... this was 5 years ago people - Malachia also ran clones by her own admission ... our current in game and forum rules were developed to try and deal with multiple instances of people doing things that manipulated the community both on and off the forums

Another character that I haven't mentioned is the Snowman ... he was allegedly involved in a lot of in game manipulation - several people claimed to have proof of this, but I never saw anything convincing

I never asked Anto if he ran clones - I know he is very anticlone at present and at that time he may have been as well - never had the chance to ask him then

Nickyl did attribute some of her clone knowhow to convos wth Anto when I talked with her OOC

Anto pushes the in game mechanics as far as I can tell - sort of .. hmmm what will happen if I try this? ... you can't deny that some of the lovely dipshit Celsius rules came along after Anto and others (including those that I have named here) exposed loopholes in the game and on the forum

Marz says a lot of shit that isn't true. Hyped herself up in Scotland before Anto arrived telling folk she was NNGO, and before he arrived, she wanted to raise an army, telling me Anto wanted her to. She told me Edrahil wanted me to join NNGO. She told all of Scotland Kragomir raped her.

No wonder this game is screwed. Why listen to Marz? Why???














Why???????

for crying out loud Elois

I never said anything about anyone other than LJS believing what came out of Nickyl's mouth

the point I am trying to make is that SK and NK never have had to deal with these types of characters, so their rules haven't had to be adapted to reflect the chaos created

Elois wrote:

Marz says a lot of shit that isn't true. Hyped herself up in Scotland before Anto arrived telling folk she was NNGO, and before he arrived, she wanted to raise an army, telling me Anto wanted her to. She told me Edrahil wanted me to join NNGO. She told all of Scotland Kragomir raped her.

No wonder this game is screwed. Why listen to Marz? Why???














Why???????

No offence, but you did believe her too back then, didnt you ?

Hmm... I used to play NK when it was called TN, there were plenty of serious nutcases. My char was goodie there and less WTF.

Yeah, but Marz was a lot milder from September-December. It was only until January that I started to think, ok, I think I need to back away a little bit, and then February she was like a Tazmanian devil, dude.

But folk who've been here since before me should know better.

Excuses, excuses gopher... ya. So what's new?

is, was, always been against clones/cheat codes

but back to topic,
still think the entire censor thing should be scrapped.

i remember when ljs was the only mod on the forums, i remember when they made the very first english censor team and it was all people that were in a rival political party in the game, i remember the huge power trips the censors would take.

the reason they made the censors anonymous with stupid pet names is because they were doing such a bad job no one liked you if they knew you were a censor; so they could no longer be held accountable for being a censor. i was there when Whit used to judge people harsh in the game's court and then split/lock threads and posts about the proceedings on the forum. i was there when Nordic used to lock down threads made by other political parties but conveniently leave their own.

i gave it a shot myself, was a censor for less than 12 hours. i took one look around, and told everyone to fuck off with their secret handshake power crap. it hasn't changed, the same stupid attitudes prevail.

if you are a censor, and really wanted to fix the system: quit being a censor.

it's that simple. let LJS go back to modding, or let him pay for impartial non player professionals to moderate; but this big brother elitist secret community bullshit will forever destroy the forums there.

enjoys,

ac

Breaks Kair's whip and lets everyone go back to their business MY HEAD HURTS TOO MUCH!!!